G.T. Fieros

Greater Toronto Fieros
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 Post subject: Re: F23 3800 Work Log
PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 6:40 am 
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Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2013 11:26 am
Posts: 292
Location: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada
cam-a-lot wrote:
Hey Shayne

Any update on this? I see you started working on a Northstar to F23 project. Does this mean you ended up getting the rear mount figured out and built for the 3800? would be great to see some pictures. I do know of a couple of other guys interested in proper F23 to 3800 mounts and are eagerly awaiting the results here. Let me know if you need anything waterjet/laser cut. I would be glad to help to get these mounts finalized. The Solidworks models look great



Hey Pete.

The reason for the Northstar/F23 thread is twofold.
1) In hopes of utilizing my rear F23 mount design to fit the 3800 as well as the Northstar.
2) I wanted to show other members what it takes to marry the two components together.


When designing a component, it's very easy to make a "one-off". The difficulty comes when one has to look forward envisioning other clearance issues. If I make a nice mount, will that require the end user to have to purchase a custom header versus a stock manifold? Thus adding cost to the swap. I've seen many 3800 swaps and there's no standard for exhaust combinations. Some stock manifolds are large and bulky, some fit, some are real close to the trunk, etc.

Since my driveline is out of the car right now, it makes sense to test fit the Northstar/F23 into there. We all know the Northstar is a wide engine. However, if I can install it using my existing F23 rear mount, then I'll be happy. This would mean the F23 is in the right location in all three planes. Therefore the Northstar, and other engines like the 3800 should have no clearance issues.

The one thing on my mind right now is the fore and aft location. If you look at the circled part of my model, it would be easy to change this dimension. This is the dimension that need before I proceed. That is the goal for this weekend and hopefully finalizing the design.
Image

PS-I thank you for the laser cutting and water jet offer. I might take you up on that offer at a later time.


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 Post subject: Re: F23 3800 Work Log
PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2015 7:56 pm 
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Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2013 11:26 am
Posts: 292
Location: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada
Here's a small progress update for today.
Since I was using 1/8" aluminum for my mock up pieces, I switched to 10 gauge steel for the final material. I knew I was close in my design and forming and the result is pretty much where I want it.
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As seen in the last two images, there are two issues that I need to alter.
1) The F23 casting tapers and therefore it makes my mount look crooked. I'll add a .125" taper to match the taper of the F23.
2) The hole is off and will be easily fixed in the CAD drawing.
Image

Clearance on the back side is good. I'll add a small brace here on the final version.
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For the record, the driveline is resting on two mounts. The one for the engine, and the rear F23 mount. Right now, the engine is sitting level and where I want it.

Here you can see the tripod lines up at the same place as the factory unit.
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Clearance is good.
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This is a 1" block acting as a spacer. This will dictate the height of the front mount.
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I have 3/4" at this location.
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Here's where the mount will have to bolt up; using the factory holes.
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I sheared up a piece of 1/4" steel. This will help spread the load and give me a place to secure the front mount to.
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That's it for today.


Last edited by Lunatic on Sun Dec 27, 2015 6:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: F23 3800 Work Log
PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2015 8:46 pm 
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Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2013 11:41 am
Posts: 241
Location: Peterborough Ontario
I have found it easier to chop off that little tab that sticks out on the fire wall side mount point then you can come across out ward and also catch the stock mount point on the F23


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 Post subject: Re: F23 3800 Work Log
PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2015 7:17 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:37 pm
Posts: 189
Hey Shayne

Looks great- thanks again for helping with this. Looks awesome! I can hardly wait to throw my current mounts in the scrap heap where they belong..

Just a reminder to please sandblast and powdercoat the cradle and mounts before final assembly, and let me know the cost and I will cover it.

Any thoughts on a proper shift bracket for the tranny? I have a set of Getrag cables to use for a mock-up if that would help


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 Post subject: Re: F23 3800 Work Log
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 10:15 am 
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Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2013 11:41 am
Posts: 241
Location: Peterborough Ontario
Would it be possible to add some metal as a gusset for extra strength right where the bend is at the bottom of the bracket so the weight is carried more evenly onto the mount in case some one was to want to use a stock rubber mount instead of poly as the rubber mounts are designed for the weight to come down on a bit of an angle instead of straight down


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 Post subject: Re: F23 3800 Work Log
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 6:30 am 
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Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2013 11:26 am
Posts: 292
Location: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada
Darn cars wrote:
Would it be possible to add some metal as a gusset for extra strength right where the bend is at the bottom of the bracket?



The plan is to add a gusset on each side to triangulate and strengthen the lower mounting pad surface. I don't think I'll keep them this tall and will probably make them shorter.
Image

I also plan on adding one or two tabs as shown to utilize the transaxle bolts.
Image


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 Post subject: Re: F23 3800 Work Log
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 11:21 am 
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Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2013 11:41 am
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Location: Peterborough Ontario
Pretty much exactly what I was thinking of thanks. This mount is in a very tight space room wise so it ends up being a give and take between strength and the ability to actually tighten down the nut or bolt on the mount which is even worse on the 84 to 87 cradle with the inner tie rod mounting point sitting right above it


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 Post subject: Re: F23 3800 Work Log
PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 2:29 pm 
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Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2013 11:26 am
Posts: 292
Location: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada
I found a moment of opportunity and decided to head into the garage and work on the rear mount.
As mentioned previously, I moved the access hole and added a little taper to the top to match the F23 contour better.
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Installing the new version.
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Here you can see the access hole lines up.
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Here are some gussets.
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Two of which will go here.
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Ready to tack weld.
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And the end result.
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Despite the fact that I ran out of shielding gas, these didn't get welded.
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Fits well and you can see the bluing in the steel due to heat.
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A bit of spatter due to low gas in the tank.
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Side view with bolts installed. I think I will beef up these gussets a little.
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Now I have to wait until next weekend. That's when I'll install the cradle into my car and take a few much needed measurements. That's all for today folks.


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 Post subject: Re: F23 3800 Work Log
PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 2:36 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:37 pm
Posts: 189
Looks awesome Shayne, thanks again

Let me know if you change your mind about a propane heater for the garage, and I will hook you up with one!


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 Post subject: Re: F23 3800 Work Log
PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 9:58 pm 
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Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2013 11:41 am
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Nice touch catching the two extra bolts on the end as I have found a few trannies where the two bolt holes on the other side were they had no threads and also some were the 5/16 metric equivalent and some 3/8 equivalent sized holes that were threaded so not very consistent.


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 Post subject: Re: F23 3800 Work Log
PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 9:13 am 
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Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2013 11:26 am
Posts: 292
Location: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada
I needed to install the cradle back into the car in order to verify clearances and visualize potential issues. So far, I like what I see.
Passenger side looking into the engine bay.
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It's kind of difficult to see but there is clearance between the driver side frame rail and the end cover of the F23.
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Driver side looking at the end of the transaxle.
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From the top looking down.
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Right side looking down.
You can see how much I moved the driveline as shown by the lower engine mount.
Image

In this current configuration, you can see there is ample room to design a front mount somewhere in this vicinity.
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That leaves me with this photo.
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I chose to move the engine slightly to the rear therefore I need to be absolutely certain that the rear exhaust manifold will fit.
I don't have a 3800 cylinder head or stock exhaust manifold so I'm partially stuck right now. I will look around for these needed pieces but until then if anyone has a 3800 in their car and would like to help, I'd like a few measurements please.
1) The distance from the edge of the block to the trunk wall as seen from the green lines. Using unmolested 3800 engine mounts in stock location.
2) The distance from the trunk wall to the edge of the exhaust manifold (or header) please specify.
Take a nice, horizontal measurement to retain accuracy.
Image


Last edited by Lunatic on Sat Feb 20, 2016 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: F23 3800 Work Log
PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 5:57 pm 
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Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2013 11:41 am
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Location: Peterborough Ontario
Can get you some measurements of my 3800Sc/F23 Fiero tomorrow if it helps and the exhaust clears the trunk by going mostly below the trunk edge


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 Post subject: Re: F23 3800 Work Log
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 4:33 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:37 pm
Posts: 189
Hi Shayne

I left a message for Luke to send you his dimensions, as his engine is properly centered.

thanks again for all your help with this. I am very excited about getting proper engine and trans mounts this year :)

Will you be lining up with my stock dog bone bracket and use the Rodney adjustable one? Let me know if you need the dimension of the bracket from the edge of the engine bay, as this may be different on the 88 due to the strut housing.


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 Post subject: Re: F23 3800 Work Log
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 7:36 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:00 am
Posts: 22
I have a measurement from a cradle I made that had a 3800 and Getrag 282 in it. The image is the cradle I made but the notation is for the existing cradle I took measurements from. Use the centre line and cradle mounting points for reference. You can't use the 282 measurements but the engine mount should be good.

Image

Cheers,

Aaron

.


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 Post subject: Re: F23 3800 Work Log
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 7:50 am 
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Single again

Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2013 11:26 am
Posts: 292
Location: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada
When I started these F23 mount endeavor, I was using an 88 cradle that was sitting on a roller lift that I had. While this worked, it was not ideal. I decided to make a cradle jig using material that I had on-hand. This will accurately index all the suspension mounting points and other critical mounting locations that I need. This is so I can hold the side rails in place while I make and modify 2"x3" tubing for the cross members. It will also get some legs so I can work at a more suitable height. With this jig, I will then be able to place the entire engine and trans combo right on top of it. This will allow me to position the drive train wherever I want more easily.

Here's a few pic's of the jig.
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I will finish this on the long weekend coming up. After that, I will place the 3800 block and F23 back into position and start working on the front mount.

On a side note: I would also like to install the Northstar to the other F23 that I have here. Then I'd like to place the entire shebang into the Fiero engine bay. I think it would be magnificent if my F23 mounts would also work for the bigger engine. This way, the mounts that I'm making will work for the entire spectrum of engine's available to swappers.
I'll get to this very soon.


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